Jason Phillips: “All In Nutrition” | Talks at Google

Jason Phillips: “All In Nutrition” | Talks at Google

to talk about the book. It’s called “All in Nutrition– Powerful Protocols That Will
Deliver What No Diet Ever Has.” And that’s really
like the foundation of virtually everything we do. We talk about protocols. We never classify
what we do as a diet. And so I’ll give you
guys a quick background. Some of you guys have been
here to see me speak before. Some of you haven’t it. But for me, my entry into
the health and fitness space is a lot different
than most people. At the age of 18, I
had an eating disorder. I was anorexic. I was 118 pounds. Kind of been an
athlete all my life. Use that word loosely. I was playing golf all the time. But I had brought myself all
the way down to 118 pounds. Obviously, overcame that. Decided right then
and there I was going to switch my major in school. Transferred to Florida State. Majored in exercise science
with a concentration in fitness and nutrition. And decided from
that very minute I was going to pay it forward. There was nothing else in my
life that I was going to do. I was just talking to Heather. I honestly believe
there’s nothing else I’m even that good at. But I have an obsession
with food, clearly. And I happen to be
pretty good at it. And that’s kind of what
brings us here today. So normally what I like to do
is a question and answer format. We want to keep it a little
bit different than what I’ve done here the last two years. So I kind of want to
bring to your awareness your relationship to dieting. So the one question I always
get when people stop me on the streets or
anywhere I am is, what’s the best diet
that’s out there? So let’s kind of stop you guys. Let’s talk about that let’s
understand what that statement even means, why it’s– can I cuss or not? Why it’s complete B– I can– why it’s
complete bullshit. So much more
comfortable, I promise. [LAUGHTER] If I have to hold my tongue,
it’s like awkward for me. So let’s kind of get
around that statement, understand why the word “diet”
in and of itself is bullshit, and really how we
need to move forward. As I’m talking, I
would love for you guys to think of some questions
that you may or may not have. Like I talked
about, we like to do a lot of Q&A. I like to
think that you guys came here to learn at least one thing. You probably have a
question in your head that you’re hoping
I’m going to answer. So instead of
leaving it to chance, I’m going to call on you
guys to come to the mic, ask that question, and I will
make sure that I answer it. So let’s talk about diet and
what that best diet might be. I think the word
diet in most people, they think it kind of
revolves around fat loss. That’s what most people think
of when they’re going to diet. They want to lose weight,
or they want to lose fat. And typically, when
somebody’s asking me that, I come to it
with the expectation there’s probably several
diets they’ve already tried. Seeing some of you
like shaking your head. Yes, I’ve tried several
different diets out there. So where you’re at today is
you’re confused, you’re lost. Is it you that’s the
problem, or is it the diet that’s the problem? And that’s really what
we have to figure out. I have the belief that
no diet is a bad diet. I also have the belief that
no diet is a good diet. Where you’re at today
is that you just haven’t found the methodology
or the amount of protocols or the number of things
in your life that align that will move you forward. So when we look at
the dietary space, it’s a lot of
calorie restriction. There’s the keto diet
that is low carbohydrate. Well, when you eliminate
carbs, you eliminate calories. Obviously, you should
lose some weight. We look at a low-fat diet. When you eliminate fats,
you eliminate a certain set of calories. You should lose some weight. When we look at
intermittent fasting, if you stop eating for
eight to 10 hours per day, you’re obviously
consuming less calories. In theory, you
should lose weight. The problem is a lot of you
guys are thinking, well, I tried keto. I’ve tried low fat. I’ve tried intermittent fasting. And it didn’t work for me. And that’s where we have
to figure out, well, why doesn’t that
diet work for you? Are you broken? Of course you’re not broken. The reasons those don’t
work for you is you guys have to figure
out what we talk about. What are your
non-negotiables in life? It’s the first question
that we ask our clients. And so if your intermittent
fasting window is, let’s say you’re eating
from noon and until 8:00 PM. But your significant
other wakes up on Sunday morning at 9:30 in the morning
and says, hey, let’s go have brunch. Is your diet now completely
thrown out the window because you just screwed
your fasting window? The psychology of
dieting says, yes, it is. You’re just going to go ahead
go on a bender that day. Because if you eat
100 extra calories, let’s eat 100,000
extra calories. It’s the same. So really, guys, what I’m
going to challenge everyone to understand is,
what are the protocols that align with your lifestyle? And that’s really what the
ethos of our book is about, is figuring out, who are you? Where do you come from? What is your
relationship with food? What social regulations
within the construct of your dietary setting
do you actually need? And so in the book, we have
eight different protocols we talk about. The first one is we
actually understand what food quality is. And so within food quality, I
think everyone’s like, well, a diet has to be chicken. It has to be salmon. It’s got to be broccoli,
asparagus, whatever the quote, unquote, “clean food” are. Does anybody in
here actually think that there’s good and bad food? Show of hands. Yes, there’s good food. And yes, there’s bad food. OK, I would actually
argue you’re all wrong. And I would argue there’s
no such thing as a bad food. Understand that every food
just contains calories. It contains macronutrients,
and it contains micronutrients. Now, some foods, like sugars,
have very few micronutrients in them. Some foods, like
salmon and broccoli, happen to have a subset of
calories, macronutrients, and a ton of micronutrients. Well, we’ve started kind of
correlating the words good and micronutrient-rich to
mean the same thing, which I think is really not the truth. So if somebody told me
today that I could never have another slice
of pizza on my diet, what is the first
thing I’m probably going to crave instantly? It’s going to be pizza, right? Especially here in Chicago. So knowing that I really
like pizza, a diet for me has to have some sort of
ability to deviate or ability to include pizza
within my dietary set. Let’s talk about the
obvious offender everyone’s worried– wondering
about– alcohol. If I told all of you
guys that to see success you could have zero alcoholic
beverages the entire time you’re dieting, how many
people think they could do it? Show of hands. Be realistic. I’ve got one, two people with
their hands up in the room. That’s awesome. Now, let’s all of a
sudden snap our fingers, magically say that I could give
you the willpower of these two phenomenal human beings. And you could do
it for 16 weeks, and you achieve your goals. Do you think that
those goals are going to be something
that you actually keep for 16 more weeks? Chances are, no. So then the real question
is, did the diet even work? Guys, what we’re building
is not really a diet. It’s a lifestyle. It’s a subset of rules that
you have to fit into your life. So let’s talk
about food sources. It really comes down to
understanding macronutrients. So we’ve got– really simple. We’ve got proteins. We’ve got carbs. And we’ve got fats. No, alcohol is not
the fourth macro, as much as we want it to be. Really, it’s a breakdown
of having the right amount of proteins, carbs, and
fats that will move you the direction that you want. So a lot of people are going to
say, well, what about calories? Well, if your macros add up to
the right amount of calories, yes, they’ll move you
in the right direction. However, let’s arbitrarily
say it takes 2,400 calories to get you to lose weight. You consume all 2,400
calories from carbs and fats. You think that’s going
to look really good? Nobody has ever come to me
in my 15 years of doing this and said, I want to lose
weight but get fatter. So really, when you start
talking about weight loss, you’re actually
talking about fat loss. I don’t know very many people
that want purely weight loss. It’s just something
to understand. Does this make
sense to everybody? Does anybody have any
questions on that? The next big thing is
the non-negotiable piece that we talked about. What lifestyle things do you
have to have in your diet? So let’s arbitrarily say I can
get you into the food quantity piece. You start to understand that. You’re willing to track it. Let’s say you’ve got to
have alcohol in your life. And you’re one of
those people that has, let’s call it, one drink per
night, seven nights per week. Doesn’t seem like much. But when we actually start to
look at the effect of alcohol on the body, I would argue
pushing all seven drinks to one night during the week would
give you better results. It’s understanding
the effect of alcohol on the metabolism, what we call
the priority of metabolism, which we might talk
about later, but really the hormonal implications
you’re going to have. So it’s understanding where
all of these things fit in. What sacrifices will you make? Will you move alcohol
to seven nights? Will you move it to two nights? Will you move it
to three nights? Let’s arbitrarily say you’ll
only move it to two nights. Great. It’s now my job as a
coach and as an educator to tell you that with
the fact that you have to drink two nights,
you might have wanted to achieve your
results in 10 weeks; it’s going to take you 20 weeks. That’s totally OK. Be 100% patient with yourself. Because now, you’re
actually living something you can sustain. Please, please do
not try to adhere to a diet that is going
to move you forward faster just because of the timeline. Because the faster
you move forward and the faster you’re
just omitting things that you actually
want in your life, the faster you will go backwards
to where you originally were. And you’ll go beyond
that set point. You will absolutely go there. Speaking of set point, let’s all
understand the set point theory as to why weight loss happens. So we look at– Lyle McDonald gives us
a really good example when he talks about set point. We look at where our bodies are. If we were to just kind
of look at a thermostat and we set the room– I don’t know–
call it 70 degrees. And it’s 76 degrees outside. What does the thermostat do? It cools down. It’s going to kick on
the AC, because it’s going to bring the natural
temperature of the room down. Your body’s the exact same. Let’s say your set point is
burning 2,500 calories per day. And all of a sudden,
you’re consuming 1,500 because that’s a common
dietary prescription. Let’s eat 1,500
calories per day. What do you think your body is
actually doing in this area? It’s downregulating
its metabolic response. Why? Because it need survival. So as you’re consuming
less and less calories, you’re actually
teaching your body to be a fat-storing machine,
not a fat-burning machine. So a lot of people go
into a dietary setting. And they’re like, well,
I’ve tried this diet. I’ve tried that diet. Well, really, all
you’ve done is you’ve reinforced with
every subsequent diet that your body
should not burn fat. So that 500 calorie
isogenic cleanse followed by the keto diet that
gave you 800 calories followed by the fasting diet where you
only consumed 1,200 calories– all you’ve done is
build a set point here. So now, when you have a normal
prescription of 2,500 calories, you’ve actually taught
your body that’s a surplus. And you’re now going to gain fat
on a normal amount of calories. That is actually–
that statement is where probably 70% of
people are living today, relative to diet culture. We’ve lived in a world
where for the last 10 years, it’s been a heavy
quality emphasis. So everything that has
come at us has been paleo. It’s been keto. It’s been, well,
god, you eat carbs. Or god forbid you
actually have a little bit of sugar in your diet. Or god forbid it’s not paleo. You’re going to die. Well, you’re not going to die. You’re also not going
to magically get fat because the food was not
was keto– was not paleo. When you look at the paleo
diet in and of itself, one of the biggest
offenders that it have is no quantity control. So we can agree– 500 calories, probably
going to take you into this metabolic adaptation
I just talked about. 5,000 calories, it’s
going to make you fat. Whether that’s salmon and
broccoli or whether that’s pizza, 5,000 calories is 5,000
calories across the board. And it’s going to
leave you overweight. So in a paleo confines,
you absolutely have to have the right
quantity control. So are you guys starting
to see where all of this comes together? So 90% of people that are
probably sitting in this room, they’ve been here, in
this low calorie state, for far too long. Oh, let’s also consider you’re
consuming 1,500 calories. Then, you’re going to do the
cardio, because we all know cardio is how you lose fat. That’s another five to 800
calorie deficit per day. So now, we’re actually
probably out here creating more metabolic adaptations. We’re doing that. We’re trying diets
that don’t really align with our lifestyle. And we’re thinking
that we’re going to actually achieve weight
loss and sustain weight loss. And it’s not really
going to happen. So guys, in the
book, we actually present you with
eight different steps that you should go through. At the conclusion
of eight steps, you should have actually
built not only the diet from a numerical perspective– so
from calories and macros– but also the lifestyle that
the diet needs to fit into. And once you’ve identified all
of those things for yourself, success is inevitable. It really becomes very simple. Compliance becomes very simple. And success is actually
where we get to. So that’s kind of where I come
at a dietary setting from. My question is
for you guys, what do you want to know about
the dieting process? So I can make sure
you all understand it, and you guys go
out and apply it. And this is where the
Q&A part comes in. This is where it
gets super awkward. Because I actually need
somebody to break the ice, raise their hand, talk into the
mic, like do that whole thing. So somebody’s got to do that. Go ahead, man. AUDIENCE: So what role
does intermittent fasting play in your philosophy
or the things you’re talking about here? JASON PHILLIPS: The
question I would ask you is, before
you started fasting or when you shifted to
intermittent fasting, what changes did you make? Was it purely just controlling
the time that you ate? Was there any other
identifications? Did you know how many
calories you were consuming? Do you now know how many
calories you’re consuming? Was your activity
level the same? Was it different? Let’s talk about those things. AUDIENCE: OK, so activity
level didn’t change. JASON PHILLIPS: OK,
activity’s level the same. So output is the same. AUDIENCE: Yup. Calorie level didn’t
really change. I’ve always been
cognitive of that. JASON PHILLIPS: So it’s
something you’re tracking, something we’re aware of. AUDIENCE: Macros. JASON PHILLIPS: Macros
you are aware of? So we kept the macros the same. We’re just in a smaller window. AUDIENCE: No, no. I’m sorry. Calorie level I kept the same. What changed was macros. So I– JASON PHILLIPS:
What macros changed? AUDIENCE: Dropped
carbs, increased fat. So feeling like much more
satisfied after I’m eating. I’m not really hungry. But just trying to
bracket it between– JASON PHILLIPS: So
let me ask you this. Do you think it was the fasting
window that changed things? Or do you think it
was your overall food consumption in 24 hours? AUDIENCE: I feel like
it’s the fasting. JASON PHILLIPS: So I would
tell you you’re wrong. AUDIENCE: Yeah. JASON PHILLIPS: So
when we look at that– and that’s OK. That’s totally acceptable. We have what’s called total
daily energy expenditure. And this is a function of
basically your basal metabolic rate, your exercise activity,
your non-exercise activity, and the thermic effect of food. Those are the four
factors that equal– that equate to your total
daily energy expenditure. This– not at all
controlled by when you eat. This– not controlled
by when you eat. This– not controlled
by when you eat. That– not controlled
by when you eat. So all of the
calories you’re out putting in a 24-hour window- not
controlled by what’s taken in. So if what you’re
taking in is being eaten in a shorter
window, it’s really just relative to the deficit. What I would argue
for you is you found a lower
carbohydrate approach. You probably had some underlying
insulin-sensitivity issues, or your activity output did not
warrant as many carbohydrates as you were consuming. That’s really what your
success came down to. So Charles Poliquin has a quote. You’ve got to earn your carbs. I don’t think we have to
go that far with things. But it’s a pretty good analogy. The person that sits
on the couch all day probably doesn’t eat many carbs. Why? We don’t need carbs to live. Carbs are what we call a
non-essential nutrient. We don’t need carbohydrate
to survive in this world. We can produce ketones. We can live off those ketones,
hence the ketogenic world we’re living in. Because you were consuming– I don’t know how many carbs. I don’t how many grams. But because you were
consuming that many grams, you brought that down. You had a little more of your
essential nutrients, the fats. And all of a sudden,
you’re seeing weight loss. You’re seeing results. I’m just going to
assume you were having too many carbohydrates. Make sense? AUDIENCE: I think it– the
whole insulin response in that– JASON PHILLIPS: The
response is huge. Absolutely. Also, to be completely fair,
how many hours a day do you eat? What’s your fasting window? Is it like– AUDIENCE: Four to eight. JASON PHILLIPS: 18:6? AUDIENCE: Yeah, like
a 24 or to a 16:8. JASON PHILLIPS: So 16:8. So that’s 16 hours fasted,
eight hours eating. The actual intermittent
fasting, like the protocol in and of itself, was
never actually meant to be a daily thing. It was actually meant
to be intermittently, you fast, meaning a 24
to 48 to 72-hour fast every now and then. I just did a 24-hour
fast on Sunday. I felt great. My GI feels way better. And there’s a lot
of research that says your gut health
is going to get better. Insulin sensitivity can improve. So prolonged fasting for you,
if there is insulin sensitivity pieces, that might improve. Cortisol regulation
can happen if done in a stress-controlled
environment. That’s huge. Let’s not mix and say,
oh, well, I’m fasting, and I’m doing
high-intensity CrossFit. And I’m gonna
control my cortisol. Like no, that shit’s
not going to happen. You’re going to
make shit way worse. But assuming you
control your stressors and you’re having
periodic fasts, you can absolutely improve
your cortisol curve, which, as we know, will help
you long-term from a hormone perspective and, ultimately,
a fat loss perspective. So I would say it comes
down to insulin sensitivity. Dude, if it’s working– this is the beauty of diet. Let’s just arbitrarily say that
Gwen had cake every single day. And we saw that
she was losing fat. And her blood health markers
were saying the exact same. That flies in the
face of science. It flies in the
face of physiology. If it’s working, I’m not
going to tell her to stop. Assuming I’m looking
at her health markers and everything is, like,
she’s super healthy, great. You’re the anomaly. Sometimes science doesn’t
explain every single thing we do, even though we want it to. Also, do you feel good
on intermittent fasting? AUDIENCE: Yeah. JASON PHILLIPS: Is it
something you could stay sustain for the next 10,
15, 20 years of your life? AUDIENCE: Yeah, I can do it. JASON PHILLIPS: OK. Is it going to interfere
with any lifestyle things that you’ve got going on? Then, dude, you’ve
found your diet. You’ve found your
dietary protocol. Let’s not use the word diet. But you’ve found your
dietary protocol. You found your way of eating
for the rest of your life. Keep doing it, man. That’s awesome. Congrats. Good for you. Yes, sir. AUDIENCE: Can you just
touch a little more on the alcohol
with the metabolism and how that impacts it? Because if it really is
that big of a difference, instead of going home
and having a glass or two of wine every night,
but I can still have the same amount
in three nights? JASON PHILLIPS: So
I’m going to give you a lot of empirical data on this. Because I have 15
years’ experience and literally have 10,000 people
I’ve put through programs. And so I’m going to get
some science zealots that are going to be
like, ah, well, that doesn’t add up 100%
from the human body. I can tell you numerically
in fat loss weight, this is how it ends
up working out. When you consume an
alcoholic beverage– let’s just say this is the
seven days of the week. Let’s say you consume
alcohol here on Sunday. This is what we’re going
to see on the scale. You’re likely going to see
the body weight go down the next day on Monday. Why is that? You’re dehydrated. What’s going to
happen here is you’re going to see the scale
go up on Tuesday, above what it was here. It’s going to go
above that baseline. On Wednesday, we’re going
to see it go up again. So let’s just say you
have another drink here. Well, you’re already dehydrated. So it’s definitely
going up here. It’s definitely going up here. And it’s going up here. Let’s say you have
another one here. Guess what’s probably happening. Well, we just tacked
onto that again. And that’s what you
start to see happen. When we look at alcohol
metabolism in the body, alcohol is a foreign
substance to the body. We know that proteins,
carbohydrates have four calories per gram. Fats have nine
calories per gram. Alcohol has seven
calories per gram. So your body really
doesn’t understand seven. It understands four and nine. So as soon as a seven comes
in, your body freaks out. It’s like, what
the fuck is this? Get it out of me. Everything else shuts down. Your liver immediately
starts prioritizing the metabolism of that alcohol
to get it out of your body. Well, what does that
do to the efficiency of everything else in the body? It slows it down. Not saying that it’s directly
going to be stored as fat, but it’s definitely not being
used as efficiently for fuel. So let’s take a look at that. There’s definitely some of that
contributing to weight gain. There’s also hormonal
suppression from alcohol. We know, via studies, that
it brings testosterone levels down, males and females. Well, when testosterone
levels are low, that begins to
affect the metabolism and metabolic health. So lower hormone output
equals lower metabolic health long-term. Lower metabolic
health equals more fat burn– or more fat gain. So really, you’re just
working in an environment where there’s just nothing
positive happening. Now, I’ll say this. There’s this one caveat. I’ve worked with
probably two people in 15 years that have insane
rates of alcohol metabolism– nothing happens. Like the dude could literally
drink a liter of vodka, and you wouldn’t even
know it the next day. AUDIENCE: So if you were
able to go cold turkey tomorrow in regards to
alcohol consumption, how long would it take the
body to adjust for that, like so you’re starting
off pretty much fresh without it compounding on
top of each other day over day? JASON PHILLIPS: I’m trying
to understand the question. So if we went cold turkey
alcohol consumption tomorrow, I guess it would depend on
how much alcohol you currently consume. So for instance,
my wife’s pregnant. I haven’t consumed alcohol
in quite some time. So stating that I’m giving
up alcohol tomorrow probably wouldn’t change my life. If I’m somebody that drinks
pretty frequently, probably as fast as 24 hours you
would start to see things. I guarantee you– you
give me somebody– can we use you as an example? So Katie likes her
alcohol beverages. We work together. It’s just factual, right? Listen, this is the
best part of it. We acknowledge it. It’s part of per protocol. It’s totally acceptable. And this is also part of
defining your non-negotiables. She’ll tell you. In the beginning,
we worked together. I’m like, Jesus Christ. Why the fuck can’t
you figure this out? Like stop drinking
on Friday nights. Stop going crazy. And then, I’m like,
you know what? Don’t stop. Keep doing it. Let’s just make sure
the other five days are a little more controlled. We actually now build protocols
that allow her to see success based on that. However, if it’s
in your diet day in, day out, week in, week
out, and you eliminated it for seven days, when you’ve
eliminated it for seven days, the results are two, three,
four x better in just as little as one week. Now, I would argue that first
seven days will be way better, and then, the effect
will slowly diminish. So you’re going to see like
you go from here to here, back down, just because,
obviously, the hormonal shift. Hormones come back up. You’re in a really good place. But ultimately, everything
levels back out. That make sense? AUDIENCE: Within the context
of a set point theory, how long does metabolic
adaptation take? And what are some
symptoms, I guess? JASON PHILLIPS: Yeah. No. That’s really good. So within the
context of set point theory and creating metabolic
adaptations, how long does it take? So everyone’s going
to be individual. I think it would come down
to a couple of things. One, what is the degree
of your calorie deficit? Two, what is your gender? And three, what does your
hormone profile look like? So we’ll discuss those. So one, we talked
about calorie level. Two, gender. And three, hormone profile. So number one– obviously, if
you’re in 750-calorie deficit– actually, they just did a study
on this not terribly long ago. There’s one that I
like to reference a lot called the MATADOR study. They put them in a
31% calorie deficit. They studied them over
the course of 16 weeks. At the end, the metabolic
markers were relatively low. There was a pretty
significant change. That being said, a
significant amount of fat loss was achieved. It was pretty much a success. They were in a reasonably
significant calorie deficit, 31%. Let’s just arbitrarily
say you’re used to taking in 2,000 calories. That would obviously put
you just under 1,400. That’s a big deficit. That being said, what if we
put you on 1,000 calories? I would say the rate
of metabolic adaptation is going to happen faster. Let’s say we put you
on 1,700 calories. The rate of metabolic adaptation
is going to happen slower. That make sense? Relatively simple then, right? Gender, why does that matter? Well, men are far more
resilient, metabolically speaking, than women are. It’s just factual. Our hormone profile,
our HPA axis, just functions a
little bit better. And that transitions
right into number three, which is hormones. We have a better
sex hormone profile. The more testosterone
you have, the less suppressed your HPA
will be and the faster you will recover from that. But let’s also look into
non-sex-related hormones. Let’s look at like cortisol
and then cortisol to DHEA ratios, which would
be kind of a– described in the– I guess it
would be controversially called adrenal fatigue. A lot of you guys have
heard of adrenal fatigue. It’s in the media a lot now. We refer to adrenal
fatigue more properly as HPA axis dysfunction. That’s truly what’s happening. Your HPA axis in your brain
is actually suppressed. It’s not working properly. It’s not able to properly
regulate cortisol in your body. If your HP axis is trashed and
you go into a very low calorie deficit, your rate of metabolic
adaptation will happen faster. You will also be
far less resilient. Does that makes sense? So really, you kind of have
to look at, well, where am I? Is this the first
time I’ve ever dieted? Am I putting myself in
a really big deficit? And am I doing mildly
intense exercise? It’ll happen at a
reasonably fast rate, but it’s not going to
be super permanent. Because it’s your first time. If you’ve tried every
diet under the sun and you’re doing CrossFit
on top of 500 calories, it’s going to happen very quick. And it’s going to
destroy your HPA axis, making it not only
going to happen faster, but it’s going to make it
much harder to recover from. Does that make sense? So in terms of
signs and symptoms, there’s two things
that we can look at. There’s two things that
we look at, as coaches, with all of our clients. We look at physical data. And we look at
physiological data. The physiological data
we call biofeedback. So I’m pretty sure any
really solid nutrition coach could work purely off
biofeedback and create change. To me, that’s a marker
of a very good coach. But it’s learning to
understand the person relative to their well-being. What is their hunger response? What is their ability
to sleep like? What is their sex drive like? What is their mood? What’s their energy? What’s their ability to
focus and concentrate? What is their body
temperature like? OK, so let’s just
say, all of a sudden, even on 1,000 calories,
which is starvation level, you lose your appetite. Well, that’s a sign you’re
becoming metabolically adapted. Let’s say all of a
sudden out of nowhere– you’re a great sleeper. You no longer have the
ability to fall asleep. And you’re waking up at 2:00 in
the morning thinking about god knows what. That’s a sign you’re becoming
metabolically adapted. Let’s say you no longer
have a sex drive. That’s definitely a sign you’re
becoming metabolically adapted. Let’s say you’re just in a shit
mood or you’re just very moody. You’re very up and down. That’s a sign
you’ve gone too far. Let’s say you just
can’t focus on anything. You sit down in front your
computer, or you go to work. You can’t do any proper work. That’s a sign. So basically a lot
of movement away from what we would call
normal or what we would call set point. There’s movements away from
point in our biofeedback, in our physiological
data as well, and those are very
indicative of us dipping into metabolic adaptations. Make sense? AUDIENCE: Back to the
intermittent fasting. JASON PHILLIPS: Yup. AUDIENCE: Is it different
for males and females? I guess I want to know as
far as female hormone levels. Can that really mess it up if
you’re doing it incorrectly? JASON PHILLIPS: I don’t think
it’s different male to female. I think it’s– a lot of females
will come to intermittent fasting– and this is a statement
relative to society today. This is not a blanket
statement myopically looking at intermittent fasting. But having the knowledge
of the clientele that’s out in the world today
and where diet culture sits, a lot of females are coming
to intermittent fasting, again, having tried five
other diets, 10 other diets. And so they’ve tried
only eating 500 calories. They’ve tried the cleanse. They’ve tried paleo. They’ve tried keto. And they heard fasting
is the magical solution. Well, where are they really
coming to fasting at? They’re coming to fasting
with probably some HPA axis dysfunction. Now, they’re not only
limiting the window of time that they’re eating but they’re
keeping their calories super controlled. So tit’s not going to
help them in any way. If anything, it’s only going to
further exacerbate the issues. Now, let’s talk about what
happens in those people from a hormonal standpoint. When you wake up,
you’re supposed to have very elevated
cortisol levels. So fasting, in theory, should
keep cortisol very high. Insulin is the shutoff valve. Those people are waking
up with no cortisol, because their HPA is not
allowing it to produce. And they’re operating
all day with no cortisol, so they’re not even
feeling very good. I would not argue that’s
a male and female thing. I just think
females are far more susceptible to getting into
HPA axis dysfunction faster. And because of the
culture we live, in they’ve been pushed
there a lot easier. But I don’t think hormonally
there’s a difference. AUDIENCE: Thank you. JASON PHILLIPS: Make sense? Yes, sir. AUDIENCE: I’m confused
about this idea of metabolic adaptation in
that you kind of describe it as like consuming less calories
is how you lose weight. JASON PHILLIPS: Yup. AUDIENCE: But then, it
screws you up because then you get adapted to it. So– JASON PHILLIPS:
Isn’t that a bitch? [LAUGHTER] AUDIENCE: So what do you
do, then, read your book? JASON PHILLIPS: I mean,
you must throw your arms up and say, fuck it, right? No. [LAUGHTER] No, you’re 100% right. And that’s the whole paradigm– the whole paradox of
dieting in and of itself. So undeniably so, as
body fat levels go down because of the calorie deficit,
as you’re getting leaner and leaner, your body is
100% drawing adaptations at you to return to set point. So if you’re taking
somebody that’s naturally, let’s call it, a
male of 15% body fat, but because he wants to
operate with visible abdominals all year round– because let’s be honest, we talk
about dieting related to abs. Fat loss is always abs. Nobody cares about the
muscles in their legs. They care about abs,
maybe arms for guys, because we’re vain like that. But let’s say you
want to get to 9%. Factually speaking,
this sacrifice right here will create a host
of metabolic adaptations. There is very literature– very little literature
to support that you can establish a new set point. So if this is your
point, you’re living within this set of compensatory
mechanisms in your body. Now, you can get down
here, and you can try to trick the metabolism. And you can say, OK,
well for every six days that I’m living in the thing– in the deficit to
get here, one day I’m to give you what you want, which
is maintenance level calories. Or you could come
down here and say, I’m going to live
two weeks here. And I’m going to give you two
weeks at maintenance calories. If I said to you, I had
somebody that just dieted down over time for 16 weeks,
or I had somebody that went two weeks, two weeks,
two weeks, two weeks, which one do you think is going
to end up looking better with 16 weeks of dieting? AUDIENCE: I mean, I would
think the first one. JASON PHILLIPS: You would the
first one, because they’re in a calorie deficit longer. This one– and there’s a
study; it’s the MATADOR study I referenced recently– actually showed not
only more fat loss but better metabolic health
at the end of that period. Now, mind you, this one
was double the length, because it took
eight cycles of it to achieve 16 weeks
of a calorie deficit. And perhaps, that’s the reason. However, what scientists tried
to show with other earlier studies and when diet
breaks were discovered– or higher calorie days or
refeeds or whatever we’ve heard out there– scientists tried to show,
well, how much fat do you gain when you go off your diet? So they intentionally
took a number of subjects that were on a calorie deficit. And they said, hey, we want
you to eat at maintenance level for between one and six days. I think it was
something like that. They were trying to show that
you would rebound and gain a significant amount
of weight because of these metabolic adaptations. Well, really all they showed
was that nothing really bad that happened. So really, part of a
structured dietary phase should be returning
to maintenance with some sort of frequency. This also comes down to–
we’ve touched on it last I was here– periodization. When I work with athletes, I
work on four different things. I work on pre-season, season,
post-season, and off-season. With athletes, that’s
really easy to see. When I work with an athlete,
when they’re right here, which a lot of CrossFitters
are right now– I don’t know if any of you
CrossFit, but you’re in-season, because the open is happening– your visible abdominals
don’t mean shit. They’ve never put anybody on a
podium for how their abs look. We’re in the Olympic
time right now. Nobody got a gold medal because
of how good their abs are. They got the best time. That’s why they
get the gold medal. Those athletes–
they’re in season– should not give a
shit how they look. They need to go through
a very brief phase here, because intense exercise is
very hormonally-demanding. So they actually need
a nutritional protocol that addresses their hormones. Now, when you’re in
off-season, that’s when you can worry
about your abs, when you can go into a deficit. However, relative to the year,
this is only 25% to maybe 40% if you have a
prolonged off-season. So you’re only living in a
calorie deficit for this long. Now if every year, we can
achieve a little more fat loss, now you’re getting
here and maintaining better metabolic health. So basically what
I’m trying to say in a lot of fucking
words is, yes, you need to go into a
calorie deficit, but you need to control how
long you’re in that deficit. And you have to have periods
of returning to maintenance. It must happen. So that could be periodic
refeeds, like one or two high carbohydrate
days per week. That could be maintenance
week calories. That could be cheat days. There’s a host of
way to get there. And then, I would
say, well, which fits into your lifestyle the best? And for people that think cheat
days sound super appealing, I can tell you when I
did my fitness modeling, I did a diet where for
six days out of the week, I was in extreme defecit. I was on 1,800 calories. Sunday, I literally got
to eat whatever I want. And when I say
whatever I want, I mean I got a frappuccino on my
way to Dunkin’ Donuts on my way to IHOP. That was how I started
my Sunday mornings. That sounds super
sexy and really fun. I’ll tell you this. A lot of dieting is
psychological in nature. It created food
obsessions for me. The other six days of the
week, all I thought about was, what am I going to do on Sunday? My training went to shit. My relationship went to shit,
because my only relationship was with the pizza I was eating
on Sunday and that frappuccino, donuts, and IHOP. So we also have to observe
the mental attachments that we build to our dietary protocols. That’s super important as well. Does that answer your question? AUDIENCE: Absolutely. JASON PHILLIPS: Does
that clear it up? AUDIENCE: Yeah. Thanks. JASON PHILLIPS: Yes ma’am. AUDIENCE: So there is
a lot of discussions out there how you should
make calorie count. JASON PHILLIPS: Really? Who’s having those talks? AUDIENCE: I feel like there’s
a lot of nutritionists that are against calorie counting. JASON PHILLIPS: Is
his name Gary Taubes? AUDIENCE: Well, like especially
with my MyFitnessPal, there’s all these
apps that are just making you eat 1,200 calories
a day if you give your goal. So how do you balance knowing
when you’re in a deficit? Or I guess do you– JASON PHILLIPS: Well,
that’s the best question. I’ll stop you right there. How do you balance knowing
when you’re at a deficit? Do you know when
you’re at a deficit? If I told you today you
had to go out and consume food and guarantee you’re in
a deficit, could you do it? AUDIENCE: Yes, I think. JASON PHILLIPS: Do
you think you would be in too big of a
deficit and start leading towards metabolic adaptation? AUDIENCE: I have no idea. JASON PHILLIPS: So
I’m going to argue that if I sent you out
into the real world and I said you have to
100% eat in the deficit, you’re probably going to eat
in a deficit that is greater than 750 or 800 calories
under where you should be. That’s what we refer to
as an absolute deficit. This man asked about the
rate of metabolic adaptation. You’re going to
adapt super quickly. You’re going to stop seeing
results super quickly. So this is where
tracking comes in. Do I think you have
to track forever? 100% no. Do I think every
single person that undertakes a dietary protocol
at some point in their life should track to create
a level of understanding as to what they consume? Yes. I think that you,
if you’re working with a really good coach,
should be brought into it gently and should be taken
out of it gently. But it’s an education
tool, and it’s a resource. It should not be the cornerstone
that we’re building dependence on as a dietary culture. So when I’m educating
other nutrition coaches, I’m teaching them how to
prescribe based on quantity. I’m also teaching them how to
transition their clients out of that. Because listen, I don’t want
to track my macros forever. My wife doesn’t do that. My kids sure as hell
aren’t doing that. I can tell you as an
anorexic teenager, I would never allow my kids
to understand food quantity, other than, hey, don’t eat
the whole fucking pizza. That’s what daddy does. But does that make sense to you? AUDIENCE: Yeah. JASON PHILLIPS: So
do I think that you shouldn’t count your calories? Well, who are you? Where are you in
your dietary phase? What have you tried before? Can I show you that you’re
only consuming 200 calories? Because eating 10
heads of lettuce really isn’t very many calories,
even though it’s paleo, bro. [LAUGHTER] Can I show you that the
whole jar of almond butter has like 4,000 fucking
calories and that even though it’s paleo, that’s
why you’re getting fat? AUDIENCE: A lot of TDE
calculations hinge on a lot– on hard-to-measure– hard-to-eyeball variables. JASON PHILLIPS: Yes. AUDIENCE: How do
you establish a TDE? JASON PHILLIPS: Yeah, that’s
a really good question. Total energy expenditure
definitely– so it relies– first of all, I gave
you the four factors– basal metabolic rate,
exercise activity, non-exercise activity, and
thermic effect of food. There is nothing that
you’re going to intake food and instantly know
the thermic effect. There’s nothing that’s
you’re absolutely going to know the number
of calories you output in a day either directly through
exercise or from taking 10,000 steps. And we can only reasonably
estimate what your BMR is. A better way to figure
out how your current diet is affecting you, assuming no
metabolic adaptations exist– and that’s a really
big statement. I think in the diet culture
today, a lot of books, a lot of websites,
a lot of pop culture is throwing out these dietary
facts with no caveats. Remember, every time that we
talk with the word “diet,” we should always be
starting it with the words, “assuming all things normal.” So assuming you’re a
normal human being, assuming you haven’t tried 10
million crazy fucking diets, and assuming your hormones
aren’t suppressed, we could probably
put you in a setting where over the
course of seven days, we could track your calories. We could look at how
your body reacted to that seven-day average. And we could come
close to estimating what that daily energy
expenditure would look like. That, truthfully,
is a much better way of doing it than trying
to use some formula. Formulas are a great
place to start. But let’s take somebody– let’s see. Well, you eat a ton of food. Like this guy right here,
if we ran his daily energy expenditure, it’d probably come
out to 2,600 2,800 calories? 2,800. He probably could consume 4,000
calories and not gain a pound. Well, according to total
daily energy expenditure, he should gain
two pounds a week. So the formulas don’t add up. So if we actually
look at real life, I want to look at his food logs. Over the course of
seven days, if you’re averaging 4,000 calories,
you’re not gaining a pound, my new assumption is his
daily energy expenditure is 4,000 calories. If I’m building
him a deficit, I’m building it off
of 4,000 calories. I’m not building it off
of some bullshit formula that scientists
over the last god knows however many years
have been building. Mad respect to them, because
what they do is super hard. It has laid the foundation of
science that we look at today. But science and
formulas are not always going to add up in
real life application. And this is where,
honestly, it’s the crux of everything that I
teach and the crux of the book. When you get into it, real life
application says, well, yeah, you should be able to
eat a ketogeneic diet and lose tons of weight. If I went on keto, I
wouldn’t lose a pound. My body needs
carbohydrates to thrive. Real life practical
application tells me that. Make sense? Yes, ma’am. AUDIENCE: How do
you know what your– whatever– what your
normal maintenance calories are every day. JASON PHILLIPS: Well, kind of
like what we just talked about. How do you know daily
energy expenditure? So the fastest way to do it
is to establish your BMR. You can do it Harris-Benedict
equation, Katch-McArdle. There’s several different
formulas out there. Establish your basal metabolic
rate, and then, multiply it times an intensity factor. I believe the intensity scale– correct me if I’m
wrong– goes 1.2 to 1.9– 1.2 basically being somebody
that’s super sedentary, and 1.9 being an
athlete training multiple times per day. That’s where you’re
going to get your best estimate from for a
daily energy expenditure. I still believe for people
out there that are educators or that want to become
educators, that is the best place to start if you don’t have
access to seven days of a food log. Let’s be honest. If everybody in here hired a
nutrition coach, and they said, hey, the first
thing you need to do is log your food the next
seven days before I can even prescribe you, you’re
going be like, fuck, can’t we start yesterday? The reality is
you’re going to want to submit two days of food
logs, maybe one if you could, or none. And you’re going to
get started tomorrow. So as coaches, those of us
that coach in this space will typically work on three. We’ll run this formula. We’ll see how it adds up. And we’ll make our best
estimated guess from there. The reality about
coaching is this. And I’ll out myself, and
I’ll out every other coach out there. When we give you a prescription,
any dietary prescription, it’s our best educated
guess given the information available to us. Any coach or any
nutrition resource or any authority in
the health and fitness space that tells you they
100% have the solution for you on day one is
completely full of shit, and you should run the
other way very quickly. It is 1,000,000%
impossible to do, even as a practitioner in the
health and fitness space. Other questions? AUDIENCE: More general question
than the weight loss question– what are your thoughts on
daily water consumption? JASON PHILLIPS: Daily
water consumption. Super simple formula– this is
one where I’ll use a formula, and it’s reasonably
accurate across the board. I like to give people–
take their body weight in pounds, divide it by two. That will give you the number
of ounces you need to consume. I like to add 15 to
err on the higher side. So a 200-pound male
divided by two– 100 ounces. Add 15– 115 ounces. That’s just shy of a gallon. I would say that’s pretty
reasonably accurate. Typically, that 15 accounts
for an exercise variable that’s in there. People will sweat. That’s replacing
the amount of water they’re losing during exercise. If they’re super
sedentary, I would just body weight divided by two. Now, are you concerned– I mean, there’s lots of
effects of dehydration. We can see hormonal
downregulation. We can see
performance detriment. We can see inability to focus. There’s lots of negatives
about being dehydrated. Being dehydrated can
make you feel bloated. It can make it hard to eat all
of your calories in the day. It can make you feel
like shit from consuming your foods, foods that
normally wouldn’t affect you. So there’s a lot of reasons not
to go into that dehydration. I always tell people it’s
the very simplest thing you can control. Just pick up the bottle
of water and drink it. Make sense? AUDIENCE: Yeah. JASON PHILLIPS: Yeah. AUDIENCE: So you’ve
talked just a little bit about protocols and about
the psychological effect of dieting. Given that, how frequently
should people step on a scale? JASON PHILLIPS: That’s
a really good question. I think it comes
down to your ability to understand the
scale as a data point. Again, what does
weight loss mean? We know, relative to
osmotic fluctuations, water fluctuations in the
body, the scale, theoretically, should shift
virtually every day. We’re not going to be
able to ensure that you’re the same level of
hydration per day, really that you had the same
exact number of calories, same macros. In a perfect world, we could. But even the number
of steps you take per day and the amount of
sodium you intake per day, potassium, that’s all
going to affect it. I think if you’re looking at
the scale as the only determiner of your success, you’re
definitely doing it wrong. That being said, I
think that if you can look at it as one data
point amongst several others that we’re looking
at for progress, then I’m totally OK with
you doing it every day. So me as a coach, if I see
somebody get on the scale and they freak out because it
went up 0.3 pounds one day even though it had been trending
down for five days, I’m probably pulling their
ability to get on the scale very frequently. That being said, I’ve been
in this space 15 years. I understand fluctuation. I get on the scale
every morning, and it doesn’t bother me. So I think it really comes down
to understanding your maturity with the process, your
psychological relationship to the process, and
really how that’s going to affect
things moving forward. Because honestly,
the scale can be a driver of dietary compliance. If you like the way
it’s going, you’re going to stay on your diet. If all of a sudden
you don’t like it, most people– and this is
a very big generality– but the truth is most people,
what are they going to do? They’re gonna start
eating less food. Well, I can tell you 90%
of people that come to me, I need them to eat more food. So they’re actually going
to make the problem worse. So again, it’s understanding
the relationship that you have with it and
where that fits into your life. AUDIENCE: Could you touch on
some of those other measures of success? JASON PHILLIPS: Yeah. So we touched earlier
on biofeedback. So I’m always looking to
maintain a hunger response throughout the process. I’m always looking to make sure
all biofeedback markers that we gave earlier are positive. I also need you to get super
clear on what your goals are. One big thing I see– and this
is really common in the space– is people come to me and say,
well, I want to lose weight. OK, great. Let me also tell you what
you’re saying when you say you want to lose weight. Even though you didn’t
directly saying it, you’re also saying these things. I’m OK with having
mildly less energy. I’m OK with having
reduced output in the gym. And I’m OK with occasional, if
not extreme or periodic, higher levels of hunger. You’re definitely
saying those things when you say you
want to lose weight, because those are functions
of a calorie deficit. Are we cool with that? So the very first thing when
we have our conversation and you tell me that,
I’m going to inform you of those three things. Now, if we’ve agreed on
that, we move forward, great. Then, I’m going to allow
those things to happen. The problem is you go
in the gym one day. And your back squat
went down by 15 pounds. And you come to me,
and you’re like, Jason, what the fuck happened? Well, I told you
on day one, you’re going to get a little weaker. It’s just part of
being in a deficit. You don’t have the fuel
or the subsequent recovery to keep up with your
training modality. That’s totally OK. So it’s really
understanding the process. If we’re strictly looking
at weight loss and that’s all that matters, great. We’re going to do what it
takes to achieve weight loss while keeping you healthy. Makes sense? AUDIENCE: Yup. JASON PHILLIPS: Yes, sir. AUDIENCE: If you’re
more interested in, say, strength to weight ratio– JASON PHILLIPS: So
relative body strength? AUDIENCE: Yeah. Is it best to try to control
your nutrition, then, through macros or calorie count? How would– so you’re not
increasing your performance– JASON PHILLIPS:
Definitely macros. AUDIENCE: –but
not gaining weight. JASON PHILLIPS: Like
I mentioned earlier, when you put somebody
in a calorie deficit, all you’re creating
is weight loss. Really what you’re
after in relative body strength is fat loss. Because again, nobody
wants to get fatter as they’re losing weight. And that certainly can happen. There’s McDonald’s studies. There’s Twinkie
studies, things where people ate in a deficit
only eating those foods. So we want to obviously
maintain as much lean tissue. Remember, you’re looking
for relative body strength. That requires you holding
onto your lean tissue, because that’s
what’s actually going to fire, create this
power output you need, at a slightly lower body weight. Now, I would argue
this– a lot of people that are looking for
relative body strength, they just don’t fuel enough. So they’re actually
not eating enough food at their current body weight to
fuel the level of performance they want. So I don’t necessarily
want to pigeonhole you into the thinking
that it’s definitely going to be a calorie deficit
that’s going to get you where you want to be. But to answer your
direct question is 100% macros, not calories. AUDIENCE: Is there
a way, a route to– if you have a adaptation
that you can fix that? Like what’s the route if you
have one and you’re not sure? JASON PHILLIPS: Yes. So how does metabolic
adaptation become fixed? That’s a really good question. So you’re a trainer, right? The fundamental change the
human body from training happens very simply. People come to you. As their trainer, you
impose a stress on them. You’re hoping that they
have enough nutrition and enough stress
management in their life to facilitate adaptation. We lift a weight. The adaptation we create
is we get stronger. We lift the weight. We break down the muscle. The adaptation we look
is to regrow that muscle. For people that are
metabolically adapted, the stressors are way too high. So there’s not enough calories. They’re getting
too much training. Or let’s look at
Western culture– too much nervous system
stimulation from stimulants; not enough sleep, so no
hormone replenishment; too much stress at
their work, whatever is going on in their house. Western culture is a
stressful fucking place. Then, we’re tacking
on calorie deficits, and we’re tacking on
training on top of that. The way out of
metabolic adaptation is reduce the stressors. That’s the bare bones of it. Reduce the stressors. How do we reduce stressors? We feed you more. The food with the greatest
impact on metabolic response is going to be carbohydrates. So the hormones that
have likely downregulated are going to be metabolic
hormones, leptin ghrelin, peptide YY, T4 T3 conversion. That’s going to come
mostly from carbohydrates. We’re going to try
to get you more carbohydrates in your diet. We’re also going to pull
back on your training. Yes, I just said even
though you want to lose fat and you’re not eating
enough fucking food, I need you to train less. That is hard for 90% of the
people to hear, right Heather? HEATHER: Right. JASON PHILLIPS: It
is the hardest thing in the world to hear. But they need to train less. They have to stress less. I need them to sleep more. I need them to consume
adequate amounts of water, because most of them don’t. Then, we started going
into deeper rabbit holes. What’s your food quality like? What is your gut health like? Potentially, how is that
affecting your hormone profile? Because again, if they’re
metabolically adapt, and they have been
for some time, there there’s some
HPA axis depression. So we’re also trying to
rebuild that hormone panel. But understand it’s a long game. If you’re metabolically
adapted and you go into like a
reverse diet protocol, we actually have an ebook
coming out on reverse dieting. We openly addressed there’s
three ways that you’re going to respond to reverse diet. There are some hyper-responders. They’re lucky motherfuckers. You feed them more. You allow them to
keep their training. They lose weight. We look like geniuses. I’m like, hey, I fed this
person 3,000 calories more. She got shredded. I’m so smart. There’s people that don’t
really respond that way, but their bio
biofeedback gets better. Perhaps body composition
gets a little better, but there’s no
real scale change. They just feel better,
and they get to eat more. That’s great. Because at the end
of the reverse diet, they go into active fat loss. They lose weight. Beautiful. And then, there’s
people that gain weight. And they can gain a
significant amount of weight. I worked with a
woman for 20 months. One year and eight months she
had to reverse diet with me. She gained something
like 18 pounds. This woman was paying me
$500 a month to lose fat, and I told her you need
to gain 18 pounds before I can get you to lose fat. Fun job, huh? I’ve got a great job. [LAUGHTER] But it’s the only way to fix it. Like what am I going
to do, feed her less? She’s already eating
like 700 calories. You want me to give
her 300 calories? She was doing five
workouts a day. You want me to have her do 10? Like it’s just
not going to work. So it’s always pulling
back on the stressors, getting more food in,
getting more recovery. Food is just a
vehicle of recovery. It’s not the food itself. It’s the vehicle and
modality of recovery. And it’s pulling back
on the stressors. Does that make sense? AUDIENCE: Yeah. JASON PHILLIPS: Awesome. Yes, ma’am. AUDIENCE: Going
back to the strength question from earlier– if strength is the
goal, how do you know if you need to gain
more weight to get stronger if you’ve kind of
plateaued in terms of PRs and things like that? JASON PHILLIPS: So
science would say that more weight is always
going to give you more leverage. Scientific principles just say
more force is going to create– or more mass is
going to more force. That’s just relative
to strength principles. That being said, a lot
of strength athletes have some vanity goals. They don’t want to be a fat
slob just to push more weight. Or they have weight classes
that they have to compete in, so they have to be cognizant
of what their body weight gets too. I think it’s just a
determinant there. I mean, the truth is, you
can always eat more calories. And it should, in theory,
provide more output. And more body weight should, in
theory, provide more strength. Again, that’s scientific theory. I would argue in empirical
data that you’re actually looking to keep biofeedback
markers alive on the top end, in a calorie surplus, just like
you are in a calorie deficit. I think that your body
functions most efficiently in a relative calorie surplus,
so really just 500 to 750 calories above maintenance. I think that’s where your body
functions the most efficiently. So it’s just playing
the long game, understanding that
strength adaptation doesn’t happen overnight. I think a lot of people think,
oh, well if I 5,000 calories, my back squat will go from 500
to 600 pounds in five weeks. It’s just being realistic
about the goals. I think most people
for– if you can add 40, 50 pounds on a squat
in a year, that’s really good. But most people seem to think
that we’re all super human, and we can add 200 pounds
to our back squat in a year. Let’s see. What else do we got? AUDIENCE: Can you talk
about the role of vitamins and supplements in any of this? There’s so much competing
and sometimes conflicting literature. JASON PHILLIPS: Yeah. Do you have any
specific supplements you want to ask me about, or? AUDIENCE: Well, like
the B vitamins, D, C, like the basic groups,
and then adapt divisions. JASON PHILLIPS: And their
role in which specific goal? AUDIENCE: Overall health,
some of the recovery that you were talking
about, reducing stressors. JASON PHILLIPS: So
I think that having a good spectrum of vitamins
and minerals in your diet is never a bad idea. When we look at any subset
of goals, be it performance, be it aesthetics, and
obviously, be it health, you’re going to want to
have a broad spectrum of micronutrient intake. That’s going to give you the
best chance of longevity. When your body is
functioning optimally, it can lose fat faster. It can perform better. So I think that you’re going
to a micronutrient-dense foods. That being said, from a
supplement standpoint, I am a big fan of Vitamin
D– supplemental Vitamin D, around 5,000 units a
day for most individuals. The reason that I’m
so big on that is if– especially being
here in Chicago. It’s snowing outside. There’s not a lot of sunshine. You’re going to have
a 25(OH)(D) test done. That’s a blood test. It’ll tell you what your
Vitamin D levels are. Most people will be clinically
deficient or subclinical. So I think the reference range
is something like 25 to 90, and most people will
come in at like a 35. We want you sitting
like 75 to 80. So we’ll supplement with
5,000 units of Vitamin D. Now remember, Vitamin
D is fat-soluble. So you’re not just going to
pee it out like a B vitamin. I could load you with
B vitamins all day. You’ll pee out what
you don’t need, because it’s water-soluble. Fat-soluble vitamins, there
is an upper level limit. There is a toxicity risk
with taking too much of them. 5,000 seems to be pretty safe. Vitamin C is one you mentioned. That can actually
help with HPA axis. So 1,000 milligrams of
Vitamin c taken at night can actually help with
adrenal fatigue or HPA axis dysfunction. You know B vitamin complex– activated B vitamin
complex is definitely helpful there as well. I think a lot of
people want to default to these things as the fixes
instead of really addressing the real underlying
problem, which is the abundance of stressors
and the lack of recovery. People want to think they can
live in a 800-calorie diet. But because they take their
B-complex, all of a sudden the world is a better place. No, that just means you’re
going to be out more B vitamins, because you’re not
taking in enough carbs to actually hold
that water anyway. Does that makes sense? Does that answer the question? I thought you were going to
ask me about fat burners. I’m like, yeah, let’s
just get them all. Because that’s what
everybody wants to talk about in supplements. AUDIENCE: Someone else can. JASON PHILLIPS: No. That’s not go down
that rabbit hole. I’m mean enough. Yes, sir. AUDIENCE: You mentioned
gut health before, which makes me think– you know, all the
rage these days is every meal should have
yogurt and kefir and [INAUDIBLE] bacteria supplements,
and all that stuff. What stuff in that
space do you think is BS and what is backed
by science and– JASON PHILLIPS: So I’m
becoming more and more against kombucha every day. Yeah, I know. Mind-blowing. [LAUGHTER] So a lot of the live cultures,
especially in kombucha, especially the commercial shit
that’s very sugary that you’re finding at Whole Foods
that tastes so good, is actually going to fee– like most of the time, it’s
actually going to be a problem. Because half the times when
you have gut health issues, it’s actually a yeast. It’s not just the bacteria. Well, the cultures found
in the kombucha is actually going to feed the yeast. So you’re actually
making it worse. So 90% of people who
have gut health issues, they do one kombucha,
things get better. And all of a sudden,
they start living on it. If they develop a
yeast, it gets worse. Probiotics in general
are– should be more about acute consumption. I don’t believe they
have to be taken daily for extended periods of time. They are more about symptom
relief in the short term than they should be about
long-term prevention. And this is where I think
that the nutritional world has it wrong right now. Mark my words– in the next
year, two years, three years, every supplement
under the sun is going to claim to have
a probiotic in it. That being said, when
we recommend probiotics, we recommend it
with 5 billion CFU. What you’re going to see in the
supplements is maybe 1 billion. So that means they spent an
extra $0.07 per bottle adding 1 billion bullshit in there. That’s what it’s
going to look like. In terms of yogurt and
kefir, I’m a fan of kefir. I’m not overly a huge fan of a
lot of the yogurt products that are out there. Organic, full-fat yogurt
is a different story, but most people don’t
want to go that way. Most of all want
like the Dannon, like fucking sugar on the
bottom, because it tastes good. But I am a big fan of kefir. I actually use it with a
lot of my high-end athletes, especially my fighters. So as their calories
got really low, it’s a great source
of micros for them. It’s also keeping
their guts healthy. Any athletes I have
in a very heavy lactate-based environment,
I’m using a lot of gut health protocols with them. I think the reason that we’re
seeing gut health become such a big thing right now
is there’s lot of research in the gut microbiome. Naveen Jain is leading a lot of
that– super intelligent dude. But I also think we’re seeing
the results of Western culture the last 15, 20 years. We’ve lived on fast foods. We’ve lived on low fats. We’ve lived on processed foods. And remember, this
whole “if it fits your macros” thing got super
sexy like eight, 10 years ago. And so people are saying they
can lose fat eating nothing but Pop-Tarts which is true. I’m not going to dispute it. That being said, it’s not
optimal for gut health. So you’re seeing people
achieve the results they want. Yet, they’re claiming
their guts feel like shit, and that’s why it’s actually
coming to the forefront today. I don’t think that we’ve learned
anything overly new outside of the microbiome stuff. I just think we’re
having to treat it relative to the environment
we’ve been living in. AUDIENCE: We have people
that want to bulk, and then, they want to cut. Do you believe it’s
possible to cut fat and bulk by doing excess protein? JASON PHILLIPS: Whoa. Let me stop you, pump the
brakes before you even say excess protein. Do I think it’s possible to cut
fat and bulk at the same time? The answer is no. Unless your training
age is very low– if your training age is
very low, if you just began training, remember
what happens your first six, eight months of training? It’s your brain that’s
really adapting. It’s not the muscles. You’re creating neurological
adaptations more than you are
physical adaptations. Because of that, there’s
a hypertrophy response, regardless of caloric intake. So you could take
somebody that’s brand new, put them on a low-calorie diet,
have them shed the fat relative to the low-calorie diet. Because of the
neurological response stimulating hypertrophy,
they will also gain weight concurrently. But that happens in the absence
of tons of protein as well. The reason you have to
have adequate protein in a calorie deficit
is because ultimately, to create low
levels of fat loss, you have to bring down
carbohydrates and fats. Carbohydrates and fats are
protein-sparing nutrients. So when your protein-sparing
nutrients are low, you actually have to
have more direct sources of dietary protein. So that being said, when
you’re in a gaining phase, if somebody is trying
to gain weight, carbohydrates and fats are
obviously exponentially higher. You don’t need as much protein. Because when carbs
and fats are high, you’re sparing the protein. So your rates of muscle protein
synthesis are much higher. That being said, I will say
some research is coming out that there’s evidence
higher protein diets, even in a
surplus, are helping stimulate an anabolic response. They are help stimulating muscle
protein synthesis even further. That being said, I haven’t
seen enough of those studies to allow me to say,
yes, high protein and– irregardless of
the time of year. Does that answer the question? AUDIENCE: Yeah. JASON PHILLIPS: OK. Yes, ma’am. AUDIENCE: Can you you ever– JASON PHILLIPS: Can you
ever overdo protein? Yeah, if you’re eating
too many calories. Some people have a very
hard time digesting very high levels of protein. So it’s either– it
becomes a gut health issue. So I guess the answer
is can you overdo it relative to body weight
or body comp or GI health? Which piece are
we talking about? If it’s body weight, yeah. If you’re eating too many
calories, even from protein alone– like the carnivore
diet, that’s a new one. I would challenge people to go
and eat 4,000 calories a day purely from meat. That just wouldn’t taste good. I like meat just
like everyone else. But fuck, even 4,000 calories a
day from filet mignon by itself is not going to be very tasty. So I don’t really comprehend it. Even the studies on carnivore
diet are, in my opinion, very skewed. Because it’s so new. Understand this
about research– you could probably set
up a scientific study to prove anything you want. If you controlled the
variables properly, you can pretty much
prove anything you want. So I would argue, yes,
there is negatives of it. Very few people
are at risk for it. AUDIENCE: How do you feel about
vegetarian and vegan diets? JASON PHILLIPS: [SIGHS]
Are we still recording? [LAUGHTER] I’m not a fan. So I think a lot of people
are going, right now, vegan as a method of weight loss. Again, cut out all the sources
of protein in your diet, and it probably adds
up to 800 calories. If you’re eating 150 grams of
protein a day as a female– 600 calories, 200 grams a
meal, it’s 800 calories. Cut out 800 calories of your
diet, what the fuck happens? You lose weight. It’s just not that hard– same
as fasting and same as keto, same as everything we talked
on earlier in the lecture. I think it’s great
to encourage people to get more micronutrients. But that being
said, you are going to lack an abundance of
micronutrients and amino acids that are critical. So there’s a set of amino acids
called essential amino acids. We cannot produce those. You have to get
them from your diet. Vegan and vegetarian
diets are very low in essential amino acids. Yes, you can
supplement with them. Do I feel like your diet
should lack anything you have to supplement with? No, I don’t. I believe it’s a
personal choice. I work with some vegan clients. One of my WWE
wrestlers is vegan. It’s her choice. I try every week to
get her to eat meat. But we haven’t gotten there yet. Yesterday, she almost gave in. So the animal meats relative
to the other sources of protein are still going to give
you higher concentrations and appropriate concentrations
of essential amino acids. So you’re getting a lot
of incomplete proteins. And so not to say that
the incomplete proteins with consumption of other
foods don’t ultimately make complete proteins. I’m not arguing that. I get that. All the science zealots will
be like, oh, blah, blah, blah. But I get it. That being said,
you’re just not getting a high enough concentration
of essential amino acids. You’re also not getting
a wide variety enough. There’s also so many
other trace nutrients they are missing out on. That being said, it’s a great
way to reduce inflammation. Because most of the fats in
animal products are omega-6. Omega-6 are pro-inflammatory. The reason people
take fish oil is to get higher
concentrations of omega-3. We currently live
in Western culture, which we live in about a 1 to
20 omega-3 to omega-6 ratio. That’s very pro-inflammatory. If we can reduce that closer
to 1 to 10, that’s optimal. If we can get one to two,
that would be amazing. I don’t think anybody can. But if we can get 1 to 10,
that’s very anti-inflammatory, which is why you
see a lot of people go plant-based to
reduce inflammation. That absolutely has merit
and has a lot of success. Well, I hope that
answers your questions. I hope I gave you guys a
lot of different routes to start thinking about
your dietary protocols from. Hopefully, you walk away
from your understanding there’s no one diet that
you should be undertaking. You should really be looking
at yourselves, your lifestyles, your likes, your desires,
your food preferences. All of those things
should definitely impact the way that you eat. If it’s not something you can
sustain for months and years at a time, don’t even
try it for a week. It’s just not worth it. It’s just going to send you down
a really gnarly rabbit hole. Even if it creates success,
that’s probably worse for you, because you are going to
undertake it eight weeks. And then, it’s gonna send you
really in a bad direction. So understand yourself. Understand your
relation to diet. Guys, I’m super thankful,
Katie, to you, to everybody here at Google for
bringing me back out. This the third year I’ve been
fortunate enough to come out. I always get super emotional
at the end of talks. You know, guys, I was
an 18-year-old anorexic. It’s super humbling to stand on
a stage at a place like Google to speak to educate you
on something that I’m so passionate about on something
that’s truly changed my life. I take it massively seriously. I flew up today, and
my wife is pregnant. She’s going to give
birth any day now. So super excited about that. But I’m always
humbled to be here. So I just want to thank you guys
very sincerely for coming out. Really appreciate it. [APPLAUSE]

16 thoughts on “Jason Phillips: “All In Nutrition” | Talks at Google”

  1. Women that previously had breast cancer and ate all their food within an 11-hour time period and changed nothing else in terms of their dietary composition reduced their breast cancer recurrence by 36%. Mice that were fed a high sugar, high fat diet but could only eat within a 12-hour window and still ate the same number of calories as mice that were allowed to eat within a 15-hour window ended up being 28% leaner, had 70% less body fat, did not get fatty liver compared to the mice splitting their meals over a longer period of time which did end up with fatty liver. The timed-restricted mice also had better blood glucose levels, cholesterol profile, and were more active, and could do complex motor tasks better.

    This even included two cheat days per week in which the time restriction wasn’t in place to sort of simulate a human weekend off. It’s really important to drive home the fact that the impact of time-restricted eating was made without other improvements in food quality… the versatility factor is of huge benefit here and what makes it appealing is it is broadly applicable for people. – Dr. Rhonda Patrick

  2. This guy is just wrong, sorry. Not up to speed on the latest science around intermittent fasting and low carb consumption.

  3. Jason Phillips quotes Lyle McDonald on the "set point/damaged metabolism subject. Lyle says that he is being misunderstood on his take of the set point. Lyle points to several lines of evidence including the Minnesota Starvation experiment which had the largest ever measured metabolic net drop of 15%. To quote Lyle from the his page "

    Because in no study that i have ever seen or ever been aware of has the drop in metabolic rate (whether due to the drop in weight or adaptive component) EVER exceeded the actual deficit whether in men or women. Fine, yes, it may offset things, it may slow fat loss (i.e. if you set up a 30% caloric deficit and metabolic rate drops by 20%, your deficit is only 10% so fat loss is a lot slower than expected or predicted) but it has never been sufficient to either stop fat loss completely (or, even to address the even stupider claim being made about this, to cause actual fat gain)."

  4. This was great, I have been researching "muscle muscular potential" for a while now, and I think this has helped. Ever heard of – Lilyhen Strength Sabrmetrics – (do a google search ) ? Ive heard some pretty good things about it and my partner got great results with it.

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